A discussion on queer Tango in Buenos Aires, New York and Berlin

Moderation, translation and text: Elke Koepping

On the verge of Queer Tango Argentino Festival in Hamburg (Germany), taking place from september 29th to october 1st 2007, a weekend of queer tango workshops took place at "Phynix tanzt" in Berlin, organized by Pinktangoball-initiator Astrid Weiske.

It was by chance that on exactly that weekend New York dancer and dance teacher Paul Chernosky stayed in Berlin in order to promote his movie trailer "Milonga Gay", which had found high acclaim at the Queer Tango Festival in Hamburg. Paul and Mariana knew each other from Buenos Aires and tangokultur.info used this coincidence shamelessly by bringing both together with Astrid Weiske in a verbal exchange of experiences in the respective queer tango scenes. Three capitals on three different continents combining three different points of view. It was a discussion that brought interesting insights into social differences between especially Argentina on the one hand and Europe / the US on the other hand, also reflecting the differing tango scenes.

The following interview transcription is the original and uncut version of the german article in the same issue of tangokultur.info. As only one of the interviewed persons was a native english speaker we would like to ask our english readers to be generous about typos and funny expressions.


The Disputants:

First of all I'd like to know something about your background in Buenos Aires, Mariana. When did you start with your queer practica?

Mariana Falcón I started it one year ago. But I started before with an all-women-milonga 4 ½ years ago.


But you're also teaching besides the practica – for queer students?

Mariana Falcón It's not only for queer students. It has to do with the kind of Tango we dance: we put in question the role, man-woman-man, a woman leading a man, changing roles etc. Of course most of the people are queer. But it's not the idea to focus on the queer dancers.


Is that a new concept for Buenos Aires, making the role change an issue?

Mariana Falcón Yes, here maybe it's not such an issue in the milongas, but in Buenos Aires it's very new what we are doing. What we are doing implies a lot more things than the kind of students we're attracting.


Historically it used not to be such an unknown thing – men practicing together. Did that get lost over the years?

Mariana Falcón Yes, especially the men. There is not so much data about women dancing together. Only maybe in the families. But what we are doing with the women is different, because in Buenos Aires the women as traditional followers cannot dance together in the Milongas – seen from a social point of view. What I started to do was teaching women to lead. It is a first step for women to be able to change roles.


Paul, what about New York, your work there. When did you start teaching?

Paul Chernosky I just started teaching gay classes not even a year ago. It's very small. It came out of my experience in Buenos Aires, falling in love with it. And also because of the movie I wanted to start it. I wanted to have people to dance with. So I tried to build up a community. It's been tried in the past. Even the bigger dance studios have tried to organize something for gay people, Stepping Out Studios, Triangulo, but it's never succeeded so far. I think part of it is because Tango's not part of the culture. In Buenos Aires at least it's part of the culture. Whereas in the United States it's very foreign and it's difficult for a lot of people to become that intimate with strangers. But for me that's what's so wonderful about it. 
It's really important for the gay community in general to have another way of developing into the scene. It's very difficult, if you're not into the typical gay scene with bars and all that to meet people. That's another reason why I fell in love with it in Buenos Aires, because it was another way to meet people. So I started to develop that in New York. And it was happening, very, very slowly and hopefully still will. But now I've been away to work with my film. It's my goal, just to little by little expose the gay community to Tango. If once I have a small amount of students that are at least able to do the basics then maybe we can organize a small milonga.


So far you're just teaching?

Paul Chernosky Yes. I taught regular weekly two classes every Sunday at a private studio on Broadway.


What do you think were the reasons for the gay milongas not to succeed in the past?

Paul Chernosky Well, there weren't classes that continued along with this. It's important for your development, of course, to go to different teachers. But I feel like, if I could have a gay teacher and a gay class, I would much rather take that class to feel comfortable. I think a lot of people in the gay community feel this way. Even if you only have a small place you should try to teach at least once a week to try to have a sort of consistency for people to know that there's something they can go to regularly. It becomes part of your life. It's harder to establish classes taking place only once a month.


I found that point very interesting: that gay people in New York feel more comfortable in a gay environment. Is that also true for Buenos Aires?

Mariana Falcón Yes, this is the idea. For me it's the same. A class or a practica is a place where you can meet people. But when I was working with gay people I understood that there are more possibilities. 

In my experience with the practica I understood that what we were doing was not only a meeting point, but to also understand the Tango as a way of communicating. To open up and see what happens. Evolution in the Tango also has to do with evolution in the society. The Tango is a popular dance. You find peoples' lives reflected directly in the dance. The society is changing, women have a more active role in social and political life. Not only the gay Tango mirrors this change in thinking, but also the queer Tango with all it's implications.


Astrid, what about Berlin? I find it very similar to New York. Buenos Aires is a special case with all the traditional implications in the Tango and also the more machistic society. Still, you don't see so many gay or lesbian couples in the regular (heterosexual) milongas. I mean, we even have a gay mayor…

Astrid Weiske But this phenomenon goes back to the gay and lesbian people, not so much to the Tango community.


So, you have to create a space for queer folks, because they just don't want to go to the regular milongas?

Astrid Weiske There are a lot of gays and lesbians dancing and learning Tango, as well in the past as in present days, more women than men. But they don't go out like straight people. The habit of straight Tango people is to go out maybe three times a week in Berlin. Gays and Lesbians are staying at their classes and dance schools. For me, my idea is, as a result of my experience with going out in the heterosexual scene, there is not even something to worry about. Nothing. They're open. We're not open.

Paul Chernosky It is true. It's true here in Berlin and it's true in New York. There's no problem for me to go and dance with another man in a regular milonga. I even danced with straight men. What I find though, a couple of things have happened. When I first came back from Buenos Aires, that was about 3 years ago, I started dancing Tango. There was this one straight man and we started dancing together and I was leading him. This was during the summer at South Street Seaport, even it was accepted, people like started looking. Not in a bad way, but in a curious way. As soon as I started dancing with a man all of a sudden other men – it's very curious, it's happened all the time – started dancing with each other, they were not necessarily gay. And I thought, "Oh, OK, I think we can do this!" And it becomes very playful and even intimate!
This happened even to me in Buenos Aires at "La Marshall", with a straight man. Here you are given permission to explore that part of you, to open up in a way you might not be allowed to in daily life. I feel that gay men in the United States stop themselves at some point in this development, saying, "Ah, nooo, this is too hard. It's corny." Something prevents them to continue with the Tango. They never fully allow themselves to experience that transition that can happen just during the dance itself.

Mariana Falcón That's interesting. The Tango is an erotic dance, because it is so close. That's where a lot of problems of the gay and lesbian Tango dancers derive from. The "Queer Tango" gives the possibility to everybody to explore different parts of yourself. That's one thing more that we can do to enhance this possibility. It's also a problem of straight people, about conceiving a straight relationship. There are many men who want to be led by a woman or a man. Nothing will happen in those four minutes of the dance that you don't want! It can be a very good exercise to explore the different sides of your personality. There are many lesbians who maybe want to dance with a man or many straight woman who want to dance with a woman. I think it's interesting to play with the roles and see what's happening.

Paul Chernosky …at least in my case something always DOES happen…

Astrid Weiske … I could write a book about that …

Paul Chernosky  I have the fantasy about meeting that MAN, that SPECIAL MAN, prince charming of Argentina. One of the things that inspired me. I was working on another film project and discovered "La Marshall" completely by accident. I wanted to take Tango classes when I was there as a tourist for a couple of weeks, but I knew nothing about Augusto or gay milongas or anything else. Then I talked to a man at a regular milonga and he told me about it. I went to my first gay class with Augusto and six weeks later I was back in Buenos Aires and finally got to "La Marshall". In my eyes it was incredible. And I had that wonderful, first romance from the dance. It developed from meeting someone on the dancefloor and turned into a brief affair. This was the inspiration for one of my characters in the film. And all my characters were inspired by the first people that I met at "La Marshall" and at the gay classes. The wonderful thing for me is, that I can go to Buenos Aires and feel completely at home.


That's what I've heard from many people – this kind of initiation to Tango. Some sort of emotional communication or flowing feeling or romantic experience. This image of what COULD happen with the other person in the dance, is what makes people go on dancing, is that so?

Astrid Weiske Yes. If you go beyond your frustration in the beginning and just continue to dance then you will meet somebody that makes you feel this way. This an experience many, many, many people have, no matter if straight or lesbian. It is definitely a point of being touched inside like you were never touched before, of raising creativity or working on your skills.

It is different in the US and Europe. What happened to me was, as I could not control this feeling at that moment, I had to hide it to continue dancing, to learn how to lead in order to gain the right to dance with another woman or to practice the leading role. I had the feeling I had to act as if I didn't feel anything. It was much more difficult. 
Now we started creating these spaces, but before I felt alone. There are not so many lesbians or transsexuals – well, yes, there ARE many, but hidden! When you dance it is a social action and many people are looking at you. It's not so easy to permit yourself to be open with your feelings. But I was not able to continue with it. Magali Saikin wrote about it in her book, that gay men had to hide their homosexuality in order to continue dancing, in order to be able to learn. Here it is different, I went to Mala Junta and danced with two women and a man and it was OK, because I felt different. When I was in Sweden and Hamburg before it was the first time that I felt it was REALLY OK. I had the feeling they didn't mind if I was lesbian or not. And in the end it was just a dance and it was good. I thought I would like to have this happen in Buenos Aires…


What do you think would have happened if people had known about your special feelings when you were dancing with that woman?

Mariana Falcón When I was teaching together at the straight scene, I know there was a woman who quit with the professor, because she was a lesbian… (general laughter) This is what happens. We're going to organize a Queer Tango Festival in November 2007 in Buenos Aires and before that there will be a queer party. It will be the first time that lesbian women and role changers crash with the gay men and straight people! We did it once at the place where I teach, because at "La Marshall" there are not so many lesbians. It happened the same with the practicas that I do. In some of them are a few men, on other times not so many. It's not easy, though. The other day that man told me, "Yes, your practica is OK, but it's FULL of women!" (laughter) Women or lesbians have more problems generally. For example, if two women dance together at a Milonga, people say that they are lesbians. That's not necessarily the case. Some sort of social discrimination takes place. But things are changing. It's necessary to go out and into the open.

Paul Chernosky Even in New York, in the very beginnings – I consider myself to be very out in most cases, I'm not ashamed, I'm proud to be gay, on the other hand I'm hoping to be a good role model. When I first got into the Tango scene in New York and now even in L. A., it's always like being, flowing, dancing in the straight community. Of course, I like to dance with women, but for gay people it's difficult initially. Straight people don't have to announce, "Oh, I'm straight!" But as a gay person – gay or lesbian – if it came just out naturally in conversation, like "Oh, yeah, I'm gay and I dance Tango." But if you have to announce it, it feels so uncomfortable.

Astrid Weiske So why do you have to announce it?!

Paul Chernosky If you're talking about what you're doing, it's sometimes – even though it's not a problem in New York – I felt like it was a problem, because it is traditionally a really macho form of dance. Even in New York, in my mind, I wasn't sure how people would react. I started dancing with men and straight men and it turned out no one was having a problem.

Mariana Falcón I think it's obvious, it has to do with the Tango, the closeness etc. Everybody has problems, it's normal that it will happen. We must be conscious of the possibility of conflicts when we dance Tango. I suffered that, too, what you're describing. It's different when you are many, for example gay dancers, they are good dancers and they appear in public. Lesbians don't appear, it's difficult, because you feel more alone. If you dance together you can feel strong.

Astrid Weiske Starting with womens' classes ten years ago here in Berlin and now in this female community, I fell in love with the dance and developed my dancing. Classes did not bring me very far, I HAD to go out. And in the beginning I was very shy, too, afraid of what people might think of me. Six, seven years ago when I went out and people were looking at me, I was not sure, if they were curious or if this was a little bit bad, but you have to find a way to deal with that. If you want to have a good dance and be with your partner, you have to forget about all of this. 
I'm still one of the very few lesbian dancers in the straight community, but my experience was, I was open to the straight, I got in contact with them, they realized that I'm a good and interesting person. You have to communicate with them and then my skills developed. Women and men are coming up to me and saying "You're dancing so beautifully." I got so many compliments all over the world, especially in New York at "La Nacional", the most conservative place. They have respect. Being open to them opened a door for me in the straight world. But I was really missing the gays and lesbians in the regular milongas. So I had the idea that maybe they needed a special offer and asked them what they wanted, "Do you want a special milonga or classes or what?" and they said, "Yes, we think so." Yes, we think so! That's when I started with something.

Filmstill  Milonga Gay by Paul Chernosky

It's different in Buenos Aires, though, isn't it? Because of the social restrictions. Homosexuality is not as widely accepted as here in Berlin.

Astrid Weiske Yes, Berlin always used to be a special city. People from abroad coming by with different ideas of lifestyle, the gay community has a long historically grown tradition etc.

Mariana Falcón The government wants to show more openness towards homosexual people in Buenos Aires now, things are changing. It's not easy to build, though.

Paul Chernosky If you are part of a minority, the only way to make a change is by being present. The only way to be accepted is to totally accept yourself in the dance.

Astrid Weiske Mariana, do you go to regular milongas in Buenos Aires?

Mariana Falcón No, well, sometimes. I don't have so much time. Especially when foreign female dance couples come, I go.

Astrid Weiske But how is it for them. Judith told me when she tried to dance with her female partner, the guys came and dragged them from the dancefloor. Brigitta Winkler told me that foreigners, tourists have a special kind of protection, they are being looked at as crazy girls and that's it.

Mariana Falcón Yes, that's right. I could dance with Ute and Martina in regular milongas because people accepted that like I was working – "Oh, you're here with tourists." I was not there as a private person, so it's not the same.


Well, let's come to the end. Do you have something like a message for the Tango communities, let them be straight or gay?

Astrid Weiske Keep your openness for the new.

Paul Chernosky This goes to those in the gay community who haven't experienced Tango yet: Be open for something miraculous, for a miraculous transformation if you give yourself to the steps. It can transform your life if you allow it to, it surely transformed mine. For the straight: Be open to the fact that we are in your lives even if you don't know it… All the time…

Mariana Falcón It's important that we are open and discover new ways of communicating. New possibilities are available right now. For us queer people it's more easy to explore them, but it's also an offer to straight people. This development might change the dance in general.

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Email to: Leserbriefe@tangokultur.info

November 2006